From:  (St.Athanasius)
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian
Subject: "The True Israel", We Are Abraham's Sons!
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:47:29 GMT

In the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the One God,
Amen. Shema Israel, Adonai Elohim, Adonai Echad.

Dear Les and anyone else reading,
     
                        Please read my post in the 'Your Church's
Catholic History' and its qualifying statements prior to reading this
thread (if you want).  I will here give account for my faith as Les
has asked. May the God of Abraham look upon us and bless us and
forgive us our many and manifold sins. 

Cross-paste commencing statement by Les:

>That's a good starting point, athanasius, why don't we start a
>discussion on where Jesus would prefer to pray - in your idolatrous
>Church, with its icons as its most sacred items or our Synagogue, with
>the Five Books of Moses, as ours?

     I thank my God who is the Father and Lord of all creation who has
sent you to me to discuss this subject. The use of the Holy Icons in
the Church were always going to have to be explained/defended by me. I
knew this from my arrival on this NG. I thank God that in the end it
is a Jew who has attacked me over this aspect of theology and not one
of my fellow believers. In this way God has protected His people from
being attackative in things they may be ignorant of, until they have
been given the time to consider the matter. 

I will isolate your statement into its various assumptions and then we
can deal with each one individually. 

1) Where would Jesus prefer to pray?

2) The Orthodox Church is Idolatrous!

3) Icons (confirm this apparent idolatry). 

4) Icons are the most sacred item (of Orthodoxy). 

5) Your Synagogue.

6) The Five Books of Moses as your most sacred item!

I think I have correctly and appropriately broken down your statement
into its assumptions.


1) Where would Jesus prefer to pray?

           This statement has its own basic assumptions that underpin
it which I must deal with as well. You as a Jew state that Jesus was a
man and nothing more. Thus you speak here now as the pentecostals do
when they refer to Jesus this and Jesus that. As if Jesus was walking
around the earth as He did in the flesh 2000 years ago. 

           This belief is itself heretical as it does not recognize
the Nature of Christ. As St Peter said on the day of Pentecost to the
stiff necked Jews that this Jesus (who you talk of as a man) God has
raised up and has been exalted to the right hand of God (His Power and
authority). Also St Peter said, " Therefore let all the house of
Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you
crucified, both Lord and Christ."  Notice that now we refer to 'Jesus'
as Jesus Christ, or Our Lord Jesus Christ, of Christ Jesus etc. He is
not 'Jesus' as if He is no different to anyone else. He has titles
given to Him by the Father and Christians do well to use these terms
for their Lord, and Jews do well to learn the lesson of the Holy
Spirit through St Peter on the Day of Pentecost.               

     Therefore Les, I answer your incorrect assumption this way, Jesus
Christ our Lord, being very God of very God, Light of Light, Begotten
not made, True God of True God Himself worships every day IN HIS
people as He has willed. This is the unification of His Nature with
ours. Therefore your question is answered already by Christ when
speaking to the Father said, "I will be in them, as I am in You, and
we shall be One as You and I are One." This is a profound mystery that
only faith can grasp.

2) The Orthodox Church is Idolatrous.

            To imply this you must assert that we believe idols to be
in fact God. Now we shall deal with Icons presently so we shall keep
it to the language you used-idolatrous=idols. Now the Orthodox pray to
One God, not many (yet we have many Icons), we commence every prayer
with the proclamation of Christian faith.."In the Name of the Father,
the Son and the Holy Spirit, the One God, Amen." The God of the
Orthodox Christian is the God who has revealed Himself throughout
history as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Thus put simply our worship
cannot be idolatrous as we have only the One True God as our centre of
worship. Also, an Orthodox should recite every day the received Creed
of Nicea/Constantinople which asserts....Truly we believe in ONE GOD,
the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth.....and in ONE LORD
JESUS CHRIST, the only-Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before
all ages, .....Truly we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Life giving
Lord who proceeds from the Father, we worship and glorify Him together
with the Father and the Son....." So we can see that our worship is
directed towards the One God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. If you
think you are able to show that Orthodox worship any other 'god'
please go ahead. I await with bated breath.....

3) Icons (confirm this apparent idolatry). 

            Now this subject alone could take a whole volume, but I
will just list them point by point to show your inconsistancies and
wrong assumptions, and to show that Icons are themselves part of the
received faith of the Christians. 

Definition: (from memory) Icon- Greek 'Ikon' meaning image.

Assumption 1: It is wrong to make an image according to the Law of
Moses.
Answer: If your assumption is correct why did God tell Moses the
following after the giving of the Decalogue... "Thou shalt make two
cherubs graven in gold, and thou shalt put them on both sides of the
propitiatory, and thou shalt make the two cherubs on the two sides.
The cherubs shall stretch forth their wings, and their faces shall be
toward each other, the faces of the cherubs shall be towards the
propitiatory." God speaking to our father Moses.

Assumption 2: It is wrong to make an Image according to the Law of
Moses.
Answer. Open your wallets and take out the drivers licence and look at
the face smiling back at you. Then walk to a mirror and look. You will
notice that the image you have made is of you!  Or walk into your
lounge room and look on the wall at the photographs of your family,
loved ones, dog, horse or family home/farm. The images you have made
are all of things 'on the earth'. 

Assumption 3: Ah, but we do not 'worship' our photos or drivers
licences. 
Answer. But this is not what you allege when you quote Moses Law. You
never refer to the 'bow down and worship them' bit, only the 'Do not
make any grave images' , you say we have made graven images and this
is against the Law, yet God ordered Moses to make graven images AFTER
the giving of the Law-How so? Yet you yourself have a multitude of
graven images in your wallets and in your homes-How so? Because to you
you apply the second half of the Law which EXPLAINS God's intent, but
towards us you judge using only half the Law. You are a hypocrite! The
Law says, Do not make any graven image...do not bow down and worship
them for I the Lord your God am a jealous God....etc.  Orthodox
worship the One God, no orthodox looks to an Icon and says-You are
God! I worship you! The moment he does he cease from being an
orthodox, just as if you looked into the mirror and said You are God!
I worship you!. Idolatry. The idolatry is the bowing down in worship
as God not in the making of any image. (Lest God, Moses, the whole
Jewish Tabernacle, and all people since have actually been
idolators!). 

Assumption 4: Ah, but you Orthodox touch your icons, kiss them, hold
them up in the air, parade them around and place them on the Eastern
wall of your churches when you are praying to God. Thus you appear to
be worshipping them to us and this is idolatrous!
Answer:  I have already answered who the God of the Orthodox is and
this is the one we worship. As to considering matter as Holy we would
need another study as to what the Orthodox view of Deification is, and
how God sanctifies whatever is dedicated to Him. Thus not only icons,
but Churches, priests, consecrated virgins, oil, water etc are all
considered to be 'holy' through their association with the Holy Spirit
and their consecration to God. Thus God may bless us through them.
This explains the touch or kiss, just as one would touch or kiss a
loved one, these are our loved ones in the Church. Remember the Jew
formally kissed the Torah prior to reading (We still kiss the Gospels
numerous times each Orthodox service). 

Assumptiom 5: Matter is not holy and cannot convey God's blessings.
Answser: This assumption is in fact gnostic heresy, denying that God
may pervade matter, its ultimate end is that God may not Incarnate as
God does not take on flesh. The Incarnation is the final argument for
Icons. As Christ Himself is the express image (ikon) of God, God is
the one who fashioned the first Icon of Himself in Adam. When He made
Adam in His Image (icon).  God also confirmed that Icon in the perfect
Image-Christ Jesus our Lord. Who was seen touched, kissed etc. The
receiving of icons in the Church it is said dates back to St Luke who
painted the first icon of the Virgin Mary. In the archealogical digs
of ancient Churches pre-Constantine there are always Icons and mosiacs
of Biblical figures and Christ on the walls and floors. Even crosses,
fish and chalice Icons have been found. On the coffins of early
Christians there are copius images of Biblical events. All this
confirms that the tradition of pictures comes from God not man.
Remember the temple was illustrated with pictures of vines and flowers
and there stood in the Most Holy Place two graven images that the
priest prayed toward every Day of Atonement, (for God dwelt between
the Cherubs over the mercy seat). 

Assumption 6: We have the Bible so we know the Gospel story and do not
need Icons.
Answer: This is an ignorant statement for the majority of persons
living at any one time cannot read. The western mindset would lock
them  out of the Gospel story because they cannot read. However, for
their own children they buy picture books until they can read and as
soon as they are at sunday school they give them pictures of Jesus
Christ, the angels and apostles etc. Not realising that under their
attackative view of the image law they break their own words! Icons
are the gospel in pictures for those who cannot read! They may enter a
Church and hear the words of God and see the story portrayed on the
walls of the Churches. 

There are many more 'proofs' of Icons to be discussed and verses from
Holy Writ that may be brought to bear but this shall suffice for the
moment, unless you have the desire or ability to attack this matter
further. 

4) Icons are the most sacred item (of Orthodoxy). 

       Simply not so. The most sacred item in orthodoxy would be Our
Lord Jesus Christ Himself who does not begrudge His own people to
partake of His Body and Blood at the Christian altars. Icons are part
of our unified whole, but they are a long way from being our most
sacred item. I know of some Orthodox Churches that do not yet have
icons in their Churches...

5) Your Synagogue.

         I note that the Lord Jesus Christ speaking of your synagogues
referred to them as Synagogues of Satan, and those who say "They are
Jews but are not!".  Therefore to answer your question, Jesus the
Christ our Lord would never now enter a Jewish place of worship and
Christians are forbidden to pray with Jews or have any joint religious
service with them. You are cast away from the Covenant until you
accept Christ Jesus as your Messiah, until then you are willingly and
knowingly reprobate. The Jew shall not be saved if he dies in his
state of reprobation, the Holy Mount of God, The Holy Zion, the New
Jerusalem is for those who have entered the eternal and binding
Covenant of Christ. 

6) The Five Books of Moses as your most sacred item!

        Indeed! You have the Law and do not understand it. You deny
your prophets, you deny Moses and you deny the Lord God Himself. Your
sacred item is your reason and hardness of heart in rejecting that
which has been fulfilled. You mock God when you hold His Law in
reverence, yet cast out the Father's Son from the vineyard and kill
Him outside the City. Your most sacred item is your bloodline...

Now Les, I have had a go at attempting to answer you. Please may you
answer the following:

Did Jewish practice during the middle ages include the marrying and
giving in marriage of three to six year old girls?

Does Jewish Rabbinic tradition teach that un-natural sexual
intercourse (sodomy) with a woman not ones wife does not constitute
adultery because the act was not sexual intercourse?

Does Jewish Rabbinic Tradition teach that the leaving of a man in a
pit to starve to death is not in fact murder?

Does Jewish Rabbinic Tradition teach that gentiles (goi) are not human
and may be treated like animals?

Does Jewish Rabbinic Tradition teach that Gentiles have no legal
rights and may not bring a case against a Jew in a Jewish court?

Does Jewish Rabbinic Tradition teach you a Jewish man to pray
daily.."I thank you God that you did not make me an animal or a
woman.?

Does Jewish Rabbinic Teaching teach you that sexual intercourse with a
goi woman is not adultery as they are not human?

Does Jewish Rabbinic Teaching teach you that a Goi may be lied to
openly without any guilt as they are not humans?

If you answer 'yes', How then may I know anything you say is truthful?
If you answer no, how may I know that you are not bringing this
teaching to bare and thus deceiving me? How do I know that you are
telling the truth at all?

What does the inferring on certain gentiles the state of 'Righteous
Gentile Award" mean in actuality?  (Hillary Clinton, Schlinder).

Are Goi allowed to read the Babylonian Talmud?

What is the punishment for a Jew who teaches a Goi the Talmud or gives
him one?

What does the Talmud teach about Jesus Christ the Lord of Heaven?

Does it say blasphemies that are too disgusting to even write?

What about St Mary the holy Mother?

Does it say horrible things that are too disgusting to repeat?

Why is it that the Jewish faith existed amongst the Romans who
demanded sacrifice to idols, whilst the Christians were executed
everywhere over the empire for their refusal to sacrifice to the
idols?

Why is it that your own Historian Josephus even said of Christ "If it
be even lawful to call Him a man", and praised St John The Baptist? 

Once you have given account of the above, I suggest we may go to the
heart of the matter and discuss from the Holy Scriptures the advent of
Christ as the fulfilment of the Jewish Messiah. In this area I would
like to focus on three major points.

1) The Jewish Messiah had to come prior to AD 70 to fulfill the
prophecies relating to Him.

2) That Jesus Christ fits all prophecies regarding the Messiah
perfectly?

3) That the Diaspora of the Jews removed any idea of tribal heritage
and thus the Messiah having to come from the Tribe of Judah and the
House of David may now never be fulfilled. 

The above points will show that the Jewish system of worship finished
at 70 AD and that which calls itself Jewish religion now is not! It is
only the remnants of Jewish heritage not religion. In fact Pharisaical
tradition remained after the destruction of the Second Temple and took
over and as such ran its natural course into the Babylonian Talmud, of
which you realise I have quoted my above questions from.

I am sure there is much more we have yet to say to each other.

Shema Israel, Adonai Elohim, Adonai Echad.
Hear O Israel. the Lord your God, the Lord is (Compound) Unity. 
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
He,who has neither the repentance of the Tax Collector, nor the good deeds of the Pharisee.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

              "The Word was made flesh in order to offer up this Body for all, 
                  and that we, partaking of  His Spirit, might be deified."
                         Saint Athanasius the Apostolic. 298-373 AD.