“Griz” <> wrote in message .

Hi Rowland.

RC > >Griz, I can hear the point you’re making… But an interesting question: How do you fit James 5: 19-20 into your paradigm? Apparently Christian people bring back sinners, and actually ‘save the sinner’s soul from death’… ?

GRIZ You see, we don’t need to “fit” anything if we are setting aside the pride in ourselves for humility before God. We are not trying to get God to fit into our paradigm, but are willing to let Him set the course and the theme and the plot and work His paradigm through us.

RC What I’m suggesting is that ‘God’s paradigm’ includes us and our works. That’s the message of James, as I read it (which is why Luther whose major paradigm was justification by faith had problems with him)… People of Luther-et-al’s ‘sola fides’ also often have trouble with Jesus’ judgment parables which suggest that I am not saved because I have-received-Jesus-as-my-personal-Savior’ – a phrase which is not in the Bible – but on the basis of what I have *done* or *not done*. Read Matthew 25. (Yes, I know how the dispensationalists have ‘resolved’ that, uncleverly).

GRIZ > Again, that’s the power of His Spirit. There is One Spirit — One Message — One Paradigm. I’m not trying to be ‘exclusive’ here,

RC I’d encourage you in that quest :-)!

GRIZ > but am simply relating what I see in the Word (Christ), and in the word (Scripture).

RC Good biblical theology – in the right order.

GRIZ > No one part of Scripture, which may at first seem contrary to the rest, can negate the rest. With that passage you refer to, I guess it’s interpretation would depend upon whether our eyes are on God as the bringer of all good things; or we still hold to the illusion that we are good. (Or at least, “not all that bad”!)

RC I guess we have to distinguish between ‘goodness as essence’ (we are sinners) and ‘goodness and gifts from a saving God’ (we are sinners who are being redeemed and doing good works as a consequence. Paul majors on that idea quite often).

GRIZ > It remains that God is the one doing the good work and not us —

RC Or we can only do good in the strength God supplies…

GRIZ > for there is no good in us save that which is a reflection of Him. He works through us and we are His instruments; and by the choice that we make we either invite His work through us or invite darkness to work against Him through us. We make that choice every moment of every day.

RC OK

GRIZ > The paradigm that says that WE are the ones who bring back sinners and WE save their souls from death, and WE cover over their sins may be supported by this one passage read in a context centering on the power of the self and the goodness of the self — but is it what the rest of God’s word says? I don’t believe that it is.

RC Perhaps this text from James has to be read in terms of complementarity rather than as an apparent contradiction to ‘salvation by faith’

GRIZ > With the Epistles, we are looking in on semi-private letters between groups of people. Who was James specifically writing to? Did they have problems reconciling their own worth to God? Did they harbour feelings of worthlessness and need a bit of a boost? How many different ways have we presented the Good News to people, depending upon where they are and what they needed to hear Rowland? Can we say conclusively that this is what is happening with James’ apparent proclamation that we cover sins and save souls from death? We cannot.

RC Good point: the NT epistles addressed specific issues in the lives of the recipients. Semi-private? Don’t forget they were read aloud, often, in the early Christian assemblies, and memorized in a largely non-literate society…

GRIZ > But we can advance the supposition until such time as God sees fit to reveal to each one of us exactly how this passage from James 5 fits and does not conflict with the rest of His word. Personally, I see no conflict.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ RC Nor do I: good to agree on that (but I sense further up this page you did see a bit of a conflict – just a little bit????)

GRIZ > But that is something that each person will have to reconcile before God.

Some questions: Do you truly believe Rowland, that you are the one saving souls and doing good works?

RC Yes – as James suggests, but yes, in the power and strength supplied by a saving God. But *ultimately* yes God does the saving…

GRIZ > Or is it God’s Holy Spirit working through you?

RC Always.

GRIZ > Is the light you shine yours?

RC Yes – but God supplied the light and lit it :-)!!!

GRIZ > Or is it God’s?

RC Yes.

GRIZ > Yours in Christ,

Griz

RC Griz: thanks for your other post (can’t find it at the moment)

supporting Vera. I’m trying to understand why a couple of months ago she said ‘Yes, I’ll look at the evangelistic material on your website and let you know if it’s suitable for my website’ (her prerogative) and hasn’t yet done that. But reading between the lines of her recent discussion with me, that Usenet post by DMPP reproduced on our website (and since taken off) was hurtful for her, and she hasn’t been able to revisit the site.

I can understand that. I was talking with a pastor yesterday who can’t go to the shopping mall near the church of the last pastorate because of hurtful memories. Who of us hasn’t experienced that?

And while I’ve got your attention: do you suspect that Mark is softening, just a little? I hope so. And I commend you for responding to his posts irenically.

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Shalom!

Rowland Croucher