On Mon, 05 Nov 2001 08:39:20 GMT, an Orthodox friend wrote:

>First, about your taking severe exception to my statement. I am sorry

>if this appears offensive or is offensive, my intention was not to

>offend you -but- state what I believe to be a historical fact. That

>being, that since Judaism rejects Jesus as the Messiah, and since

>Christian positions asserts that in Jesus “all the fullness of the

>Godhead dwells bodily”, that by natural response Judaism does not

>grasp ‘more fully’ the Nature of God as taught by Jesus Christ. Please

>note that I disagreed with those people who claim that Jews and

>Muslims worship pagan ideas of God. Your following statement about

>Jesus being taught is only applicable if He were not the Incarnated

>God. Our history shows in fact that He is the source of knowledge and

>he had more wisdom at twelve years of age than all the Rabbi’s in

>Solomon’s Temple of His day. Which of course makes sense if He is God

>in flesh.

>>

I am happy to accept your view that we Jews rejected the messiahship of Jesus. We believe that in every generation, a person exists who has the potential to be the Messiah, if we Jews are worthy. What we reject about Jesus, far more strongly is the deity of Jesus. For us, as in Islam, we reject Jesus as G-d, since, for us Jews, G-d “dwells alone”. Anything more than this is not monotheism.

I think it would be correct to say that the Nature of G-d for the Jew is of a different substance to the Nature of G-d for the Christian. The G-d of the Jew can have no physical appearence since He is a pure spiritual entity. For us, it would be impossible to confine G-d, who is “everywhere, all at once” into the limited confines of the human body.

That you say that Jesus was as wise at 12 as all the Rabbis in the Temple is a little conjectural since we have no example of the wisdom of Jesus from that time that would not have been taught to him by his Rabbis in the first place.

BTW, there is a midrashic story that when a Jewish child is in the womb:

“[During the period of gestation] light burns above its head, and it gazes and is able to see from one end of the world to the other. There is no time during which man abides in greater happiness than during those days. At that time he is taught the entire Torah, all of it. But as he comes into the air of the world, an angel appears, strikes him on his mouth, and makes him forget the entire Torah”.

But every so often, a child is born where “the mouth wasn’t struck” and he comes out with all his learning and wisdom intact. We had a situation in Melbourne like that about 20 years ago. Yet in no way did we Jews regard him as anything other than a boy unusually blessed.

Of course we also have our geniuses and child prodigies who know all the Torah and Talmud by the time they are 13, but that is attained only by hard work.

>>>By the way, the abbreviation of the Law is seen in the two tablets on

>>>Mt Sinai. The first tablet contained four Commandments and the second

>>>tablet contained the remaining six. The first four commandments were

>>>towards God and the final six were towards our fellow man. Jesus

>>>teaching of only two commandments is seen in the two tablets Love God

>>>(first four commandments) and love your fellow man (second tablet

>>>containing the remaining six commandments to others).

>>>

>>Not quite right. The two tablets contained five laws between man and

>>G-d on one side, and five laws between man and man on the other.

>

>Only wrong then -if- the interpretation of the Rabbi’s is totally

>correct (although very wise and is similar to Christian allegorical

>teaching in some ways) If the fifth commandment is seen as a behaviour

>towards our fellow man, -then- my description of Jesus’ abreviation of

>the law into two tablets/commandments, stands.

>

LOL, This is not the interpretations of the Rabbis since the time of Jesus. This is the received learning from Moses at Mt. Sinai. If there is anything illogical or unreasonable in it, or even anything that that goes against Christian beliefs, then let us hear about it. It stands because it is the received word of G-d every bit as much as the written Torah, and because, it makes sense – plain common sense.

>Christian allegory states that we obey our father (God) and our mother

>(the church) as we should obey our physical father and mother on

>earth. FWIW.

>

We have a seperate law that requires the Jew to listen to the words of our Rabbis. We Jews do not have the seperation between the people and the religious establishment as you do. The Rabbi serves no role in the running of religious services. Many synagogues function well without them, providing the laity are familiar with the requirements in correctly running the service. The purpose of the Rabbi is to teach and guide, not to be the “Master of Ceremonies” running the service.

Once a gentile friend came to see a Sabbath service at our synagogue and he was sitting beside me. He was looking at the proceedings going on and asked me which one was the Rabbi. I said it was the fellow sitting next to him. That quite floored him.

>>What also should be noted from this, is that the laws between man and

>>man are just as important as those between man and G-d.

>

>A valid point.

>>

>>And as I said, we Jews taught Jesus.

>>

>>Just the humble “leaven” of a Jew, for what it is worth.

>

>I consider your opinion important to learn and to understand you and

>your faith. The ‘leaven’ of the pharisees that Jesus referred to was

>in fact pride as you explain below. As the saints of the Church state,

>”all sins have as their beginnings in pride.”

>>

True.

>>BTW, did you know that “leaven” is actually a term for pride and

>>arrogance and not for teachings as Christians have it?

>>

>>Les Brown

>

>You will note that I have responded to your other post with Rowland as

>well.

>

>Peace and grace.

>

Thank you for your understanding,

Les Brown