Picking up on the discussion about the ‘true humanity’ of Jesus Christ (See Google groups under ‘The Humanity of Jesus Christ’ , May 5, 2006 et seq.) I wrote (in part): Jesus was truly human: he was not omniscient (he confessed he didn’t know something); he was not omnipresent (only in one place at a time); he was not omnipotent (he got tired)… etc. My Orthodox friend [1] responded (in part): Jesus said he was in heaven and on the earth at the very same time. And later: The Second Person of the Holy Trinity at the Incarnation took Flesh to Himself, of two Natures (God/Man) IN One Incarnate Christ. My -original- point was Jesus our Lord said the words and at the same time He was in heaven, He referring to the Second person of the Holy Trinity. Two places at the same time (well -ALL- places at the same time for that matter. 🙂

From an Orthodox friend [1]: As for whether modern translations assert this truth or not lets look at a few huh? First the NIV, pretty common amongst Protestants and undertaken by 100 prottie ‘scholars’…says… John 3:13 (New International Version) 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[a] Footnotes: John 3:13 Some manuscripts (Man, ***who is in heaven***) So yes even they include it in their footnoted referemce. The NIV is most likely the MOST dispersed Bible so called amongst the Protestant people.

RC: The NIV is the most common translation among Protestant Evangelicals throughout the world. The most commonly used translation among Mainline Protestants in the Western world these days is the NRSV, which reads ‘except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man’ and also footnotes ‘Other ancient authorities add “who is in heaven”). So both of these prefer ‘from heaven’ to ‘in heaven’ and relegate the latter variant to a footnote.

[1]: All of whcih is totally irrelevent to Greek Orthodoxy which uses the orginal Greek. “13 kai oudeiv anabebhken eiv ton ouranon ei mh o ek tou ouranou katabav o uiov tou anyrwpou o wn en tw ouranw”

Another very popular Bible is the KJV, old English notwithstanding and what doeth iteth sayeth? John 3:13 (King James Version) 13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. So there it is clear as day recorded in that version as well.

[2]: What is clear is that this is a reference to the ancient Greek belief that the souls of all men exited in heaven from the beginning prior to being born on earth when they came down to inhabit mortal bodies. Read Plato’s Timaeus and Phaedrus. John is saying that the souls of everyone born on earth even the son of man (Christ) already existed in heaven. There is no need for holy spirits and trinities to understand this.

RC: Which still does not address the central issue: did Jesus Christ *exist* in both *places* – heaven and earth – at the same time (as my Orthodox friend, but no one else, it seems, affirms)?

I’d like some quotes from the early Fathers, as the manuscript evidence is developmental/contradictory…

[2]: How about Plato’s Timaeus which says that the earth and everything about it are images of the eternal realm, thus everyone on earth already exists in heaven and on earth at the same time.

[3]: This question itself is based on several theological errors (from the point of view of Orthodoxy):

First, “heaven” is not a physical place, but an experiential state (of union with God).

Second, “eternity” by definition is outside of time. Therefore, the phrase, “at the same time” has no application when it concerns heaven.

Orthodox theology holds that Christ is one in essence with the Father, for all eternity. His sojourn on earth did not interrupt this union (because, remember, the “other side” is outside of time).

It’s a mistake to conceive of such things in a small-minded, literalist way. I would suggest that you simply get over the logical trap in which you’ve placed yourself. As the Orthodox are wont to say, “It’s all a Mystery.” Leave it at that.

~~~

More…

[1]: Because every major translation of the Bible in the world can see them!!!

RC: ‘Every?’ I’d be careful using a word like this, when you have already noted that some translations haven’t followed your preferred course.

[1]: Every translation can see them when they are in the Greek. 🙂

RC: Facts: The Revised English Bible also follows the KJV, but the more mainline translations don’t:

NAB plus New Jerusalem Bible doesn’t: ‘the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man’. CEV: ‘No one has gone up to heaven except the Son of Man, who came down from there.

[1]: Yes you quoted the CEV previously and I see you have added another two. I am unable to ascertain whether like the NIV either of those extra versions refer to the “in heaven” statement in the footnotes. Perhaps an uninterested third party who have either of those translations might look up John 3:13 and check for me.

RC: Let’s go backwards…

I looked up my Greek-English NT and noted the Nestle (1904/1958) version in Greek – ‘ek tou ouranou katabas, ho huios tou anthropou’ (literally, as Alfred Marshall offers in his interlinear translation (1990): ‘out of heaven having come down, the Son of man’).

[1]: Lets note that there are different views regarding which texts, whether to use the majority or not. Obviously the translations you have referred to use nestle. However I note that in the two other main Greek passages the text is as I have shown it to be. I have also taken the liberty to translate the passage using a Greek-english interlinear:

(Greek NT – Textus Rec.) John 3:13 kai oudeiV anabebhken eiV ton ouranon ei mh o ek tou ouranou katabaV o uioV tou anqrwpou o wn en tw ouranw

Confimrs the one speaking was at that time in heaven.

(Greek NT – Byz./Maj.) John 3:13 kai oudeiV anabebhken eiV ton ouranon ei mh o ek tou ouranou katabaV o uioV tou anqrwpou o wn en tw ouranw

Confimrs the one speaking was at that time in heaven.

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) John 3:13 kai <2532> {AND} oudeiV <3762> {NO ONE} anabebhken <305> (5758) {HAS GONE UP} eiV <1519> {INTO} ton <3588> {THE} ouranon <3772> ei <1487> {HEAVEN} mh <3361> {EXCEPT} o <3588> {HE WHO} ek <1537> {OUT OF} tou <3588> {THE} ouranou <3772> {HEAVEN} katabaV <2597> (5631) {CAME DOWN,} o <3588> {THE} uioV <5207> tou <3588> {SON} anqrwpou <444> {OF MAN} o <3588> {WHO} wn <5607> (5752) {IS} en <1722> {IN} tw <3588> {THE} ouranw <3772> {HEAVEN.}

I have said before and shall say again that Arians existed all throughtout the holy land areas and they denied the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. As todays Arians do in their NWT amending John 1:1 so too the ancient arians did not like certain passages and amended them. Obviously any passage that had Jesus in heaven and on the earth at the same time would be a problem for them. Easy solutions, get the scissors!

I also note that again and again the early Christian church fathers help us and of the two times this verse is quoted prior to 325 AD (remembering the Arian heresy raged at that time and after that extensively), we find surprise surprise they are quoted using the longer version and that which conforms to Christian theology of Christ.

St Hippolytus, “Against the heresy of one Noetus.”

“This, therefore, was signified, brethren, that in reality the mystery of the economy by the Holy Ghost and the Virgin was this Word, constituting yet one Son to God. And it is not simply that I say this, but He Himself attests it who came down from heaven; for He speaketh thus: “No man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” What then can he seek beside what is thus written? Will he say, forsooth, that flesh was in heaven? Yet there is the flesh which was presented by the Father’s Word as an offering,-the flesh that came by the Spirit and the Virgin, (and was) demonstrated to be the perfect Son of God. It is evident, therefore, that He offered Himself to the Father. And before this there was no flesh in heaven. Who, then, was in heaven but the Word unincarnate, who was despatched to show that He was upon earth and was also in heaven?” P. 225, Vol. V, ANF.

A Treatise of Novatian Concerning the Trinity.

Because, even to the highest, “not any one hath ascended into heaven save He who came down from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.” P. 622, Vol. V, ANF.

So we see that standard Greek texts confirm this verses as I have quoted it. Early Church fathers who predate the Arian heresy quote it the way I referred to it and in fact there is NOT a single reference to the shortened verse in the Ante Nicene Fathers.

RC: So the discussion ends up in the air… Any wisdom anyone?