Subject: Re: God Likes Erotic
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 01:57:47 GMT
From:  (Les Brown)
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian

 (Nigel B. Mitchell) wrote in aus.religion.christian:

>I wrote:
>>>The two people who speak with such sensuality about their physical and
>>>emotional love in the Song are not married. They have to sneak off into the
>>>vineyards or smuggle each other into their rooms for thir assignations. They
>>>go out looking for each other in the night,and lament that the watchmen and
>>>their families subvert their plans. In public they have to act like brother
>>>and sister.
>
>Les replied:
>>Not married? Nigel, I am shocked!
>
>>Does it not say:
>
>>SON 4:8  Come with me from Lebanon, my spouse, with me from Lebanon:
>>look from the top of Amana, from the top of Shenir and Hermon, from
>>the lions' dens, from the mountains of the leopards.
>>SON 4:9  Thou hast ravished my heart, my sister, my spouse; thou hast
>>ravished my heart with one of thine eyes, with one chain of thy neck.
>
>>The actual Hebrew word used here for spouse is "Kallah" which is best
>>translated as bride, not spouse. The Hebrew word for wife is "Ishah".
>>There is no distinct Hebrew word for spouse.
>
>I hesitate to argue Hebrew translation with you, Les, but the word
>"Kallah" is most often translated "daughter in law", or "bride" in the
>sense of "betrothed". It expresses the relationship in which a man has
>legal/moral responsibility for a woman, but it is clearly not the same
>relationship as that expressed by "Isshah", meaning "wife".  I cannot
>find any references outside the Song where the word clearly means a
>person who is already married. At best, you could argue that the word
>refers to people who are int he process of betrothal/marriage.

A woman is considered a Kallah from the betrothal on. Amongst Jews in
biblical times there was no such thing as an engagement. If for some
reason the betrothal needed to be broken then a divorce (get) was
required and the contractual obligations of the marriage contract, in
the event of its termination, become active as it would have been had
the marriage formalised. A Jewish betrothal is not an engagement, but
the actual marriage itself short of consummation.

There are 16 places in the O.T. I could find where Kallah as a bride
is mentioned. They are:
Isaiah 49:18, 61:10, 62:5
Jeremiah 2:2, 2:32, 7:34, 16:9, 25:10, 33:11
Joel 2:16
Song of Songs 4:8, 4:9, 4:10, 4:11, 4:12, 5:1

In every case it refers to a Bride and Groom on their wedding day. It
is not clear in any case whether it is before, during or immediately
after the actual ceremony. Bare in mind that consumation, or the
possiblity of consumation (yibum), is a part of the ceremony which is
incomplete without it. 

And if "Kallah" means daughter-in-law, then is she not already
married?

There are 14 locations in the O.T. I could find in which
daughter-in-law is mentioned. They are:

Genesis 11:31, 38:11, 38:16, 38:24
Leviticus 18:15, 20:12
1 Chronicles 2:4
Ezekiel 22:11
Ruth 1:22, 2:20, 2:22, 4:15
Samuel 4:19
Micah 7:6

In every case it refers to a woman who is (or was) married.

>>>The Song of Songs is about emotional, sensual and sexual love. It is in the
>>>Bible because it can be read as an analogy of the love of God for hs people
>>>and vice-versa, but it has nothing to do with married love.
>>>
Well, in view of the above, although Song of Songs can hardly be in
connection with a daughter-in-law, Kallah could still be referring to
a married woman. There is nothing to suggest that Kallah only refers
to a woman who is not married, but she may, at the very least be
betrothed, but she could be married also. It would be wrong to suggest
that has nothing to do with married love, but rather "Kallah" is used
to express the intensity of desire, passion and love of a married
couple at its strongest moment - when it is new:

Jeremiah 2:2. Go and cry in the ears of Jerusalem, saying, Thus said
the Lord; I remember you, the devotion of your youth, your love like a
bride, when you went after me in the wilderness, in a land that was
not sown.

Having attended many a Jewish marriage ceremony in my time (including
my own (:-))) I can assure you that a new wife is still called a
Kallah for at least the first 7 days of marriage and sometimes up to a
year. That a bride and groom could Biblicaly still be considered
newly-weds for up to a year, I base upon Deuteronomy 24:5:

DEU 24:5  When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to
war, neither shall he be charged with any business: but he shall be
free at home one  year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath
taken.

>>I think you mean an allegory. That of a man and his G-d, between a
>>people and their G-d. The best allegory to explain the fiery intensity
>>of this relationship is that between a newly married couple.
>
>You are of course, correct, I mean "allegory". However, as I read the
>Song, especially the references to living in their parents houses, and
>having to hide the true nature of their relationship in public, I
>still maintain that it makes most sense if the couple are not married.
>
If it refers to the mother's chamber, there is a notion that her
mother will help her preserve her love (Jewish parents-in-law tend to
have a more positive image). The allegory is that the Land of Israel
(the bride is Israel) is a holy land and conducive to the worship of
G-d.

>If they are married, what is the sense of the following and passages
>like it?
>(Song 8:1-2 NRSV)  O that you were like a brother to me, who nursed at
>my mother's breast! If I met you outside, I would kiss you, and no one
>would despise me. 2 I would lead you and bring you into the house of
>my mother, and into the chamber of the one who bore me. I would give
>you spiced wine to drink, the juice of my pomegranates.
>
The way the NRSV has translated it doesn't help.

The Judaica Press translates it differently:
8:1 O that you were like my brother, who sucked my mother's breasts! I
would find you outside, I would kiss you, and they would not despise
me.

To the Jewish people to kiss in public would be an act of immodesty.
According to the Mezudath David, this verse; "is a message from the
maiden to her beloved; I long to kiss you in the street, in public,
but I am ashamed, lest I be put to shame. If only you would be to me
as my infant brother, who still sucks my mothers breasts and whose
sister is not ashamed to kiss him in public"
(Song of Songs, Judaica Press, pages 92,95)

Possibly without this understanding, the problem of the unmarried
maiden, would be truly overshadowed by the problem of incest!

8:2 I would lead you, I would bring you to the HOUSE OF MY MOTHER (in
Heb. "El bayt imi") who INSTRUCTED ME (Heb: T'lumdayni); I would give
you to drink some spiced wine, of the juice of my pomegranate
(singular). All caps are mine BTW.

Is there a problem with this verse, in view of the more correct
translation, if they are married? If so, what is the problem?

In view of the fact that Song of Songs is an allegory of the love
between G-d and His people, and since His people have entered into a
marriage contract (The Torah) with Him, it could not, rationally, be
understood as referring to unmarried love. If it were the case, it
would mean that there is no covenenant between G-d and the Jewish
people, heaven forbid.

Best Regards,

Les Brown