Subject: Re: Jesus Plays Favourites?
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:50:05 +0800
From: Nigel Mitchell <>
Organization: St George
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian

Nigel:
>> When we are talking about God, is there a distinction between Love and
>> Grace?

Darren:
> Yes, Love is not an emotion, it is an attribute of God that is evidenced
> in His self giving for the blessing of others (ie his son as a
> propitiation).
> Grace is also an attribute of God, however, it is manifested in his
> goodness (salvific or common) towards those who do not deserve it. Grace
> (salvific) is the application of his love to undeserving individuals.

That sounds like a _very_ fine distinction to me.
In any environment except perhaps an academic dissertation, I would not make
a distinction between the attribute of God that is evidenced in self-giving
for the blessing of others, and the attribute of God which is manifested in
his goodness and self-giving for others.

>>>> This is a really important and fundamental difference. In
>>>> sharing the Gospel, do you start with "God judges you" or with "God
>>>> loves you"?
>>>
>>> Grace – but how has He manifested this grace?
>>> Grace only makes sense when people appreciate that in fact He doesn’t
>>> judge them, for they are already judged as having fallen short of the
>>> glory of God. Therefore, in such a helpless position their only hope of
>>> salvation from their sin is to trust in the blood of Jesus as God’s
>>> gracious of salvation for all who repent & believe.
>>
>> Why?
>> What is the "Judgement" of which you speak? How is it related to "Grace".
>
> We are all judged to have fallen short of the glory of God – original sin.

I am not sure what you mean by Original Sin.
Do you mean the sort of mechanical understandinng promoted by those who
misunderstand Augustine, that Sin is passed on from parent to child through
the act of sexual intercourse.
Or do you mean that it is in the nature of humanity to be sinful, i.e. to do
harm to ourselves and each other, and to turn away from God?
Or do you mean something else?

Does your model of evangelism rely on you convincing a person that s/he is a
‘miserable sinner’ before they can be saved?

>> I am still unclear whether you see "God judges you" or "God loves you" as
> the
>> starting point of evangelism. "God is gracious towards you" really
> doesn’t
>> work, unless you give people a lesson in theological vocabulary first.
>
> Trying not to be a pedant but when doing apologetics/evangelism, I might
> in fact start with diff concepts like God, sin, justice etc depending on
> the background of an individual.

That sounds like your starting point would normally be "God judges you",
although wyou might sugar coat it in some circumstances.

> However, concerning our discussion we may say God’s love for us is
> manifested in the giving of his Son as a propitiation for our sin (Jn
> 3:16; Rom 5:8; Gal 2:20 ).

In other words, Jesus is God’s love manifest in the world. To sinners.

> However, as individuals grace is God’s love (salvation) bestowed &
> received by faith (Rom 3:23-24; 4:16; 9:15; 11:6).

That is the loving relationship that comes through faith.

> I never say to anyone who is not a believer that "God loves you"

with respect, perhaps you should start.
What "Good news" do you have for the world?

I have good news – God loves you. There is lots more besides, but that
is the
first and main point.

> but that
> God’s love for us is evidenced in the giving of his Son. However for the
> unregenerate grace is the point of contact to experience God’s saving
> love.

What do you tell people that "Grace" means. Do you really teach people the
difference between "Grace" and "Love" at the point of contact?

> "And the God of all grace who called you to His eternal glory in
> Christ….." (1 Pt 5:10a)

I think you mean 1 Peter 5b. You would have to give that verse to an enquirer
verbally. I shouldn’t think anyone would respond positively if you let them
look up that verse in the bible in the first five minutes of an evangelistic
conversation!

1 Peter 5:10 And after you have suffered for a little while, the God of all
grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself
restore, support, strengthen, and establish you.

Sorry, Darren, but that kind of proof-texting (or proof- half-texting) seems
pretty pointless (and, to be honest, lacking in integrity) to me.

> Another aspect to this discussion – where does repentance & faith come in
> your evangelistic preaching Nigel?

The sequence goes like this (except obviously there is converation and
dialogue involved. I don’t do this on street corners, but I often do it in
other contexts, usually when the person I am talking to recognises that I am
a Christian from my clerical collar or some other indication..

Hi.
God loves you.
The story of Jesus’ life death and ressurection are the signs of that love.
The community of the Church is the place where you can experience that love,
learn to share it with others, and experience the benefit of it in your life.
What does God ask of us in response to his love? – repentance and faith. Turn
away from the things in your life that harm you, that harm others, and that
stand between you and God. Turn towards God, believe in him, and ask him in
prayer to strengthen you with his Holy Spirit.
… etc.

cheers

N+