July 2003

You might find this interview interesting, not least because of this man’s pedigree. The second half is more interesting than the first, and touches on a number of current issues.

For the Indonesian version and a photo, go to http://www.tempo.co.id/harian/wawancara/waw-TariqRamadan01.html

Ironically, this interview must surely have been conducted in English, and many weeks down the track they may put up an English translation on their English page!

Dr Tariq Ramadan: “The Concept of Jihad is not War”

When Dr Tariq Ramadan spoke to Tempo journalist[s] it was in the style of teaching in front of a class. In a lucid but firm manner, he spoke of his views and critiques of Islam. Precisely as if he were talking to his university students, he occasionally “exploded” as he touched on the oppression of Muslims in various parts of the world. It was the same style he’d used in intellectual forums in Jakarta, Bandung and Yogyakarta last week.

Born in Switzerland 42 years ago, Tariq is unique. He is the grandson of Hassan al-Banna, the Egyptian founder of the Muslim Brotherhood which is often called the founding organisation of Islamic fundamentalism. In 1928, his grandfather garnered Muslim support to fight colonialism. These days his grandson continues the struggle, but with completely different methods.

A graduate of philosophy [with a thesis on Nietzsche] and French literature, he gained his doctorate in the field of Islamic Studies at the University of Geneva. He currently teaches at two prestigious universities in Europe, Genevan College and the University of Fribourg. He has an active role in discussions about Islam in Europe and several other countries. In the present confused relations between Islam and the West, Tariq has emerged as a bridge. Through his books, amongst them “To Be European Muslim [sic]” (2000), “Islam, the West, and the Challenge of Modernity” (2002) and “The Future of Islam in Europe” (2003), he speaks to the world.

He doesn’t agree with Muslims who isolate themselves. He also rejects Muslims who merge so much into the European way of life that they lose their Muslim identity. Because of that, he promotes the concept of the Middle Way: being simultaneously Muslim and European. Because of this view he was chosen as one of the innovators by Time magazine in the special edition at the start of 2000.

Last week, this father of three who speaks fluent French, English and Arabic, received [two Tempo reporters] in a cute European style house in [a suburb of] South Jakarta. His interview follows.

According to you, what is the main problem in Muslim-West relations?

[TR] The chief problem of Muslims in Europe is that they are not yet fully integrated into society. For Westerners there are only two types of Muslims: moderates and fundamentalists. This misunderstanding and misrepresentation of Islam has certainly resulted in Westerners applying a double standard in law. Because of that, a Muslim must understand his religion well to be able to adapt it to his environment. In that way, Islam becomes contextualised. As Muslims, we are not only [expected] to understand our religion, but also the country, law and society of the place where we live.

You mentioned that Muslims are often marginalised. In what, for example?

[TR] There’s a misunderstanding about Muslims that leads them to often becoming victims. People attack and blame Islam. Because of that there has to be a movement from within Islam to [correct these] misunderstandings. We are in this situation because there are people who don’t like Islam and malign it. We have to counteract this marginalisation by becoming part of the system, by becoming active citizens.

How do you adjust to the culture of a country without losing your Islamic ideals?

[TR] In Islam we must promote equal education for both male and female. If we see in a country a difference between male and female, that’s not Islam, but the culture of that country, eg Morocco nad Turkey. As Muslims, we must differentiate between culture and religion. Apart from that, we must be more knowledgeable and more actively involved in society. Not just in [passively] accepting everything, but also in actively demanding rights. This is called the Silent Revolution. Muslims in the West are now more aware of what must be done to change this situation.

Is that the reason you [talk about] the concept of the Middle Way, ie to be both a good Muslim and a good citizen?

[TR] What I mean by the Third [sic – Middle?] Way is in between, becoming a good Muslim and a good European citizen. I abhor Muslims who isolate themselves, but I also abhor Muslims who merge into a society and lose their Muslim identity. Thsi is the reformist tradition, not modernist, because it’s actually an old concept, as old as Islam itself. Many in the West have long said that Muslims can’t possibly unite. However, now we prove that we can.

Indonesia as the largest Muslim nation is very much influenced by Western thinking which marginalises Islam. What do you think?

The Muslim community in Indonesia has big problems. Indonesia has the largest Muslim population. However, I’m not convinced that Muslims in Indonesia are Muslims in their hearts. Possibly its only a symbolic and formal identity. Muslims in Indonesia even dare one to prove you’re a Muslim, but only on the surface, not in a deep [way].

How does this compare with the Middle East?

What has to be done at the grass roots level is popular education. Islam needs people to explain what Islam actually is, what is its essence, to enlighten Muslims in that place. This is in society not in universities. I think that many Muslim groups in Indonesia practise Islam in a formal way and only on the surface. Indonesians are too influenced by Western culture so that sometimes you don’t know who you are and whose side you’re on. Secondly, Indonesia must strengthen its grassroots Muslim organisations, helping people and educating about Islam.

Could you give an example of such a popular Muslim movement?

[TR] In Indonesia, every Friday many people come to mosques to do the Friday prayers. They’re aware of the importance of that, but sometimes they don’t understand Islam in any depth. Because of that, there has to be Muslim education for society so that Muslims themselves understand their religion [in depth] and carry out its principles. Because, although you live in the country with the largest Muslim population, you live in a multi-faith society. You have to help people understand Islam properly. Many groups in Indonesia use Islam as a political weapon.

The cover story in Time magazine last month was about missionaries trying to convert Muslims to Christianity. According to you, what’s that problem like in Indonesia?

This is not just a problem in Indonesia, but also in Africa. Christians spread their religion and a section of the Muslim population overreacts, whereas they themselves don’t undestand Islam in any depth. If you don’t want Muslims becoming Christians, the solution is to explain to Muslims what Islam actually is. You can’t force them to become Muslims, but you have to explain to them what Islam is. If Muslim education of Muslims is [inadequate] then Christians have an open field in which to act. And this is not their fault.

What about the concept of jihad?

[TR] Jihad is a concept with many aspects. To understand jihad, you have to turn to yourself. Within ourselves there is the temptation to act with cruelty, anger or conceit. That is the natural appetite of humans. We can act with cruelty, but with full awareness we can control those evil urges… The concept of jihad is not war, but peace. If you take it to the collective level, it is the same. Jihad is not holy war. The term holy war came from the Christian crusades. For us now, jihad means to oppose/resist. When there is unjust oppression of Muslims, we must resist. That is jihad. Not war against Jews, Americans or the West.

[So] jihad contains the concept of resistance?

[TR] Yes, but the current concept of resistance is totally wrong. Many Muslim intellectuals use the term holy war to explain jihad. Many Muslims use the concept of jihad in a wrong way. Jihad is the concept of peaceful resistance. However, it must be remembered, there is no resistance without justice. There’s no peace without justice. For example, I steal your bike. Two days later I admit that I’ve taken your bike and I want to make peace. Certainly you say, return my bike first then we can discuss peace. This is the situation experienced by Palestine.

Negative views of Islam increased with a frenzy following September 11 and the Bali bombing in Indonesia. How do you view these problems?

[TR] The war against terrorism is a war that is difficult to explain. The problem is there is no official definition of terrorism in international bodies like the UN, NATO etc. That is why terrorism defies explanation let alone extinction. And the victims are Muslims. Besides, if the definition of terrorism is killing innocent people, then we have to fight all kinds of terrorism, including state terrorism. Indeed, we know many Muslim groups who claim that jihad means the right to war against Jews or Americans. That’s not true. We have to oppose thinking that’s not related to the teachings of Islam.

Meaning that Muslims must carry out reformation in a big way to change that negative view?

[TR] True. But the question is, what sort of reformation? Many of our brothers promote Islam without knowing true Islam. They teach that it’s not necessary to do the salat [set prayers], it’s enough to be in contact with God 24 hours a day. This is not reformation, but annhilataion. If so, those who do that are not reformists, but the destroyers of Islam.

What do you think of the concept of an Islamic state. Is it indeed the aim of all Muslim movements in the world, including Indonesia?

[TR] What is actually needed is not an Islamic state that puts into effect the principles of justice, equality and alternation (good changing leadership). We don’t have a model of an Islamic state because we live in a society that is complex socially, politically and culturally. The name can be whatever, what is important is that the country carries out the universal principles I’ve just mentioned. We mustn’t be obsessed by the name, but the practices.