Rowland: [This hasn’t appeared on my a.r.c. list yet, but I’d like to reply immediately. And I’ll see if I can configure Netscape to produce something nice, rather than scattered ends-of-lines:-)]

Michael: Let me start this reply with a complaint. By replying only to the introduction of my longish post, and snipping the meat of my argument, I feel that you have completely missed the point of what I was saying. If someone reads your reply, and not my post, they will likely get from my words the exact opposite of what I originally wrote.

R: I was only responding to one part of it: but point taken. It’s probably good netiquette to summarise a snip. Sorry for the ‘sprinter’s error’ 🙂

M: The crux of my post was twofold:

If we look in the NT for clear, deliberate, instructions on social justice we won’t find them.

R: I think we will. Summary: Jesus said ‘I have come to free captives, liberate the oppressed, proclaim the Jubilee’ (in his ‘mandate for ministry’ in Luke 4). Those are the key ‘social justice slogans’ for the Jewish people. Then if I can summarise the Johannine and Matthaen commissions: ‘What I’ve done, you do; what I’ve taught you teach!’

M: Neither Jesus nor Paul led a rebellion against the Romans. They did not campaign against slavery. They did not abolish hunger or disease in Israel. If Jesus intended to do any of those things He would have succeeded. He chose not to.

R: Everywhere in the world and in history God’s people have to make pragmatic choices: which evils do we resist how? I’ve stated in another post that I think the apostles wisely did not attack macro-evils in a revolutionary way. Theirs was principally a revolution of the spirit, yes. But the NT approach to women was revolutionary, to mention just one…

M: If, however, we look deeper, there are more subtle clues available. Jesus did heal the sick and feed the poor, when they were presented to him. His words and His actions were full of compassion, both on an emotional level and a practical level. If we understand Jesus’ teachings then we will want to make the world a better place. We can never expect to wipe out poverty, crime etc. We live in a fallen world and such things will always be with us. We can, however, do our best – in prayer and in action.

R: Here we have to make a distinction between ‘social concern’ (or compassion) and ‘social justice’. There’s plenty of stuff on my website about that distinction. Briefly: compassion addresses the concomitants of pain; justice the causes. Dom Helder Camara’s famous line: ‘When I give money to the poor they call me a saint; when I ask why are they poor they call me a communist.’ In countries like Brazil they know that distinction very clearly. My contention (and your post highlights it) is that Westerners don’t understand that distinction. But the biblical people did.

M: In a nutshell, our primary responsibility is to preach the Gospel. But if we understand God’s love, we will also love our neighbour – and we will act in a positive way.

R: In a nutshell the biblical gospel can’t be separated out from Jesus’ kingdom ethic of justice/love.

M: I believe that was clear in my initial post, but I believe your reply has focussed on only the first half – presenting a distorted view of my words.

M: Now read my response again, and I think you’ll see we have a different slant on the whole thing:

Rowland C. Croucher wrote:

> > Michael Smith wrote:

> >

> > Social Justice is always a hot issue with Christians. Should we be

> > out there feeding the poor, or converting them.

> > > > The simple (perhaps facetious) answer is “both”.

> > > > However when resources are inadequate (which they usually are),

> > where do we concentrate. How important is social justice?

> > > > At first glance, the bible really doesn’t give us too much to go on.

> > ‘Where you stand determines what you see.’

M: That’s true. However what you see is not always what’s there. Try discussing the bible with SW.

> Ask Christians who are oppressed, particularly in third world

> settings, and they see social justice right through the Bible,

> from God’s judgment on Cain to the Book of Revelation – a

> brilliant tract on social justice (the powers will be overthrown

> etc.)

M: Revelation should give great comfort to the oppressed. It shows that God is in control and that He will, eventually, destroy evil and make the world perfect.

R: Right. Justice is about the abuse/misuse of power: God will right those wrongs eventually.

M: To the hungry or frightened it says, “have hope, things will eventually change”.

R: Which raises another issue: I don’t think God promises always to feed the hungry. Some of God’s best people have starved to death…

M: I cannot see what it tells you and I about our involvement in social issues.

R: Again, you’ll have to follow my distinction between justice and compassion…

M: The judgement of Cain shows how God hates murder. That is not a secret if you read much of the bible. How would you relate that to modern social justice?

R: Easy. Social justice is all about the misuse of power, but one human/institution against other humans. The story of Cain and Abel is exactly about social justice. That’s how the severely oppressed have always read it…

> >

> > Jesus certainly didn’t involve Himself much in social issues. When

> > the Parisees tried to get Him to criticise the heavy Roman taxes he

> > replied “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”

> > (Mark 12:17)

> Oh yes he did: the Roman issue aside, Jesus’ championing of the poor

> is everywhere in the Gospels, particularly in Luke and the Sermon on

> the Mount…

Examples??

R: OK. Just two. Jesus’ ‘cleansing of the temple’ is all/only/primarily about social justice. The house of Caiaphas was ripping off poor Jewish pilgrims and Jesus got angry about that. Then Jesus’ diatribe against the Pharisees for ripping off widows, by apparently robbing them of their (husband’s) possessions…

M: Rowland I suspect that, on the whole, I agree with your conclusions about our social responsibilities. I simply question the logic you use to arrive at them.

R: And I’m saying we need to distinguish carefully (as the biblical people did and as poor people do today) between ‘social responsibilities’ and ‘social justice’. Fortunately the Lausanne movement has helped us do this: again, read the articles on Evangelicals etc. on my website.

R: BTW (1): Ken Smith, you’re back with us. Good. Would you like to comment on all this?

R: BTW (2): Michael: thank you for your many thoughtful posts on this newsgroup, and your irenic (beautiful word) spirit. Apropos our discussions recently about relating as sisters/brothers rather than ‘diatribe-producers’ was it you who mentioned that you live with a disability? I’ve thought about that: and I would covet the kind of ‘community’ here that I read on a few other newsgroups/lists (like bit.listserv.christia) where we can share our joys/sorrows and be assured of the prayers of others.

R: Which leads me to ask you all to pray for our youngest daughter Lindy (24). She leaves our home this week for the U.S. where she has been invited to help plant a ‘Generation X’ church. If anyone wants to contact her about that, she’s quite an expert, and would appreciate encouragement and theological/practical insights from others doing a similar ministry.

Michael Smith