Subject: Re: Babylonian Talmud.
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:57:12 GMT
From:  (Les Brown)
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian

 (St.Athanasius) wrote in
aus.religion.christian:

>Nigel, I also told you that this WAS NOT MY ORIGINAL SOURCE! My
>original source was the TALMUD, of which was videotaped by a Baptist
>Pastor in a Synagogue. You have not dealt with the references at all
>in a deep manner. To do so would require you to go to a Talmud used by
>Jewish people, not one translated for western eyes. Now also, in the
>article I referred too, it is mentioned information about various
>translations and changes. This argument is now superfluous, because
>according to whether that information is true, you would have to
>search amongst translations that have been changed or removed from
>your reach. Neither of us can follow that through. BUT I repeat, I saw
>the references with my own eyes on the video in the Talmud. It was an
>old version, in English with brown/age soiled pages, huge brown
>volumes, about 13-20 I recall. Your argument against the stated
>references is akin to the 1 John 5:7 debate, I am quoting the KJV to
>you and you are quoting the NIV to me. This is a circle that shall not
>end!

This is STUPID!

First Point: Why would a Baptist Minister go into a synagogue with a
video camera? Was he trying to do it without being seen? Very few
synagogues have the complete Talmud in it, and, unless it's a place of
regular learning like a Yeshivah or a Kollel, the only version it
would have would be in Aramaic, not English.

The Jerusalem Talmud has yet to be translated into English.

Second Point: One used by Jewish people? You mean the ones in Aramaic?
This might come as a shock but there is no special Talmud for
"Westerners" (as opposed to Jews who appear to be deemed by you as
Orientals. Jews can be Westerners too, but that may be difficult for
you and your Eastern Church sympathies to understand). There is no
Talmud in English for gentiles that is a whitewash of what the Jews
use. Sorry, but this is the plain truth and I defy you to prove
otherwise..

Third Point: The Babylonian Talmud has only been translated fairly
recently into English. I study both in the Aramaic and the English. I
can assure you that the English is a very close translation of the
Aramaic. My Aramaic is not too good, so I have to rely on the English
quite often.

>Nigel, do you realize that in my original post to Les, I knew that the
>ONLY final thing he could say on this topic was similar to what you
>now say..."The Talmudic references are quotes of Rabbi's
>INTERPRETATIONS, and other Rabbi's may have disagreed with them."  So
>now you see you are now bringing in variant INTERPRETATIONS from other
>Rabbi's to explain the passages. This is acceptable, so long as you
>recognise that the references can also (and have been ) taken to mean
>exactly what they say. 
>
Interpretations are only that and no law is necessarily derived from
them, so what ever is written in the Talmud, unless you know how to
read and understand it, you will never know what is permitted and what
is not.

>Nigel, wrong how? In quoting the Talmud? Your enemic attempts to
>whitewash the references are obvious. Don't you realize that even
>modern Jewish Rabbi's (quoted in the article I referred you too)
>acknowledge that the Talmud contains hate filled words against
>non-Jews. Nigel, my only error with regard to you was associating you
>the man, with your office (Christian Priest). I have apologised for
>that and shall not make that error again.....

There are no hate-filled words in the Talmud, but there is in the New
Testament about Jews. Shall I quote what your early church fathers
said?

PROMINENT SAINTS ON THE JEWS
Let us see what Saint John Chrysostom had to say about the Jews.

"How dare Christians have the slightest intercourse with Jews,
those most miserable of all men who are lustful, rapacious, greedy,
perfidious bandits, pests of the universe!  Indeed, an entire day
would not suffice to tell of all their rapine, their avarice, their
deception of the poor, their thievery and their huckstering.  Are they
not inveterate murderers, destroyers, men possessed by the devil?
They are impure and impious, and their synagogue is a house of
prostitution, a lair of beasts, a place of shame and ridicule, the
domicile of the devil, as is also the soul of the Jew.  As a matter of
fact, Jews worship the devil: their rites are criminal and impure;
their religion a desease; their synagogue an assembly of crooks, a den
of thieves, a cavern of devils, an abyss of perdition. Why are the
Jews degenerate?  Because of their hateful assassination of
Christ.  This supreme crime lies at the root of their degradation
and their woes.  The rejection as dispersion of the Jews was the work
of God, not of emperors.  It was done by the wrath of God and because
of His absolute abandonment of the Jews.  Thus the Jew will live under
the yoke of slavery without end.  God hates the Jews, and on Judgment
Day He will say to those who sympathize with them: "Depart from Me,
for you have had intercourse with My murderers!" Flee, then from their
assemblies, fly from their houses, and, far from venerating the
synagogue, hold it in hatred and aversion."
 
Now, what has Saint Augustine said?
 
"Judaism, since Christ, is a corruption; indeed, Judas is the
image of the Jewish people: their understanding of Scripture is
carnal; they bear the guilt for the death of  the Savior, for through
their fathers they have killed Christ. The Jews held Him; the Jews
insulted Him; the Jews bound Him; they crowned Him with thorns and
dishonored Him by spitting upon Him; they scourged him; they heaped
abuses upon Him; they hung Him upon a tree."
 
The following is from _The Beleaguered City: The War Against
Catholics_ (available from Omni Publications, P.O. Box 90056,
Palmdale, CA  93590:
 
AUGUSTINE, SAINT (354-430)
 
Bishop of Hippo, North Africa, Doctor of the Catholic Church,
and the most influential Catholic theologian. Known as the
Father of Theology. St. Augustine asserts and proves in his
Treatise on the Psalms, clearly and distinctly, that the Jews, and not
the Romans killed Christ. See also his Oratio Adversus Iudaeos. Called
Judaism a corruption:
 
 "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord
for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever
will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."
 
 "The Jews held him; the Jews insulted him; the Jews bound him; they
crowned him with thorns, dishonored him by spitting upon him; they
scourged him; they heaped abuse upon him; they hung him to a
tree; they pierced him with a lance."
 
"The Jews murdered Christ in order not to lose face. They are
undoubtedly our enemy."  

"Long before the coming of the Saviour, Judaism had progressively
become corrupt.after the revelation of Christ, it fell completely
under Satan's inspiration; formerly the chosen children of God, they
became the sons of the devil."
 
"Ye know what secret counsel was that of the wicked Jews, and what
instruction was that of the workers of iniquity. Of what iniquity were
they the workers? The murder of Our Lord, Jesus Christ.
'Many good works,' saith He, 'have I showed you -- for which of those
works go ye about to kill me?' He had borne with all their weaknesses:
He had healed all their diseases; He had preached unto them the
kingdom of Heaven; He had discovered to them their iniquities, that
they might rather have them, than the Physician that came to cure
them. And now at last, without gratitude for all the tenderness of His
healing love, like men raging in a high delirium, throwing themselves
madly on the Physician Who had come to cure them, they took counsel
how they might kill Him.

"The Jews cannot say, 'We did not murder Christ' -- albeit they gave
Him over to Pilate, His judge, that they themselves might seem free of
His death. They could throw the blame of their sin upon a human judge;
but did they deceive God, the Great Judge? In that which Pilate did he
was their accomplice, but in comparison with them, he had far
the lesser sin. (John XIX, 11) Pilate strove as far as he could to
deliver Him out of their hands; for which reason also he scourged Him,
and brought Him forth to them. He scourged not the Lord for cruelty's
sake, but in the hope that the might so slake the Jews' wild thirst
for blood; that, perchance, even they might be touched with
compassion, and cease to lust for His death, when they saw what He was
after the flagellation.
 
"Even this effort he made: 'But when Pilate saw that he could not
prevail, but that rather a tumult was made,' ye know how that 'he took
water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying: I am
innocent of the Blood of this Just Person.' And yet, 'he delivered Him
to be crucified!' But if he were guilty who did it against his will,
were they innocent who goaded him on to it? No. Pilate gave sentence
against Him, and commanded Him to be crucified, but ye, O ye Jews, ye
also are His murders! Wherewith? With you tongue, whetted like a
sword. And when? When ye cried, 'Crucify Him! Crucify Him!'" 
From the Office of Good Friday.

St. Augustine's answer to the question "Did the Jews Crucify Jesus?"

Whereas I can accurately say that what you have read in the Talmud and
taken to be anti-gentile, is really out of context and and badly
translated AND devoid of any of the positive things the Talmud says
about gentiles, can you say the same of what I have posted above?
Have Christian EVER written anything positive about Jews that did not
include "convert" in the same sentence?

There is no doubt in my mind that when it comes to hatred, the
Christian church, in the past, has far exceeded in filth and vitriol
even the worst things written by my brethren about gentiles. You are
the clear winners here.

Nigel has tried very hard to assure me the Christianity is not
anti-semitic, I regret to say it, but you in no way convince me of the
veracity of his argument.

Can I make you an offer, Greg? Came with me to any Orthodox Synagogue
in Melbourne or to any Jewish Bookshop where the Talmud is and you can
look through any English version of the Talmud you like. In fact, I'll
even supply you an index. Or you can subscribe to any number of
web-sites that discuss each page of the Babylonian Talmud in English
as part of a seven year cycle (Daf Yomi). They won't know - or care -
if you aren't Jewish. If you like, I'll even post a sample of what
they are discussing at the moment.

This is an opportunity for you to see for yourself what is written
there. The problem that you have is that you appear to be too unsure
or worried about what you might find to go out and judge for yourself.
The Torah tells us to that a Judge must go and see for himself, in
order to judge correctly.

Les Brown