From:  (Nigel B. Mitchell)
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian,aus.religion,nz.soc.religion
Subject: Re: News: Persecution / Human Rights
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 14:42:17 GMT

>Nigel B. Mitchell wrote:
>> 
>> I am intrigued. It sounds as though news about religion is off- topic
>> on nz.soc.religion. Is that the case? Can someone please post the FAQ
>> (or the URL thereof)?

In <36DAFEAE.4AB090>, Tigger <> wrote:
>The URL for the group page is in my sig. There is a FAQ there. Yes, news
>about religion is generally off-topic, as we prefer to discuss things
>rather than announce. We tend to consider news postings as something
>like those preachy postings some spam-like Christians make. If you're
>prepared to discuss the news item you brought to our attention that's
>fine, but just posting tons of news just 'to let us know' is frowned on.

I hasten to add that I did not bring the news article to your
attention. In fact, I rarely read such postings, but I cannot see
where (or why) they would be off-topic in a group set up to discuss
religion. If you follow Rowland Crowcher's postings at all you will
find him quite unlike " those preachy postings some spam-like
Christians make". His "news" postings often serve to prompt a response
and some very interesting discussions. Indeed, some of the longest
threads in the history of a.r.c have been prompeted by Rowland in this
way.

>> Is there room for a reasoned discussion here, or is everyone too

>We like to think there's nothing else, though I suppose we end up
>mudslinging as much as any other group. We entirely welcome reasoned
>discussion. With zeal. :)

Do you think that a Christian is capable of "reasoned discussion"?

>> A: I wonder if any of the atheists can list some of the positive
>> contributions that Christianity (or any other religion) has made to
>> human society?

>Can't think of anything that only Christians have done. They have their
>charities and things, but non-Christian groups do too. I suppose basing
>a society on 'love thy neighbour' can't have been bad, but I'm not
>really going to say that history shows they've lived up to that, either.

"Love your neighbour as yourself" is a Jewish idea anyway (Leviticus
19:18). The Jewish Rabbi Hillel, who lived in the century before
Jesus, taught that this is the essence of true religion. 
 
>> B: I wonder if any of the Christians can see how utterly absurd it is
>> to appeal to scripture in order to settle an argument with a person
>> who does not attribute any  authority (divine or otherwise) to
>> scripture.

>I wish they would.

We have something in common already!

Another thing we have in common, FWIW, is that I have visited your
country twice, and both times my visit has been based in Christchurch.
Having grown up in Adelaide, which was also designed by Col. William
Light and along very similar lines, I felt right at home there. It is
a beautiful city. 

>> As a Christian I would be happy to take part in either or both of
>> these discussions.

>Well, welcome. We love enlightened debate with Christians. So few
>exhibit any intelligence.

>How bout starting us off? Saying you're a Christian is, as I'm sure
>you're aware, not saying a lot. What do you believe in? 
I will not bore you with a recitation of the Christian creeds. 
Essentially, I believe in God who created me and all that is. I
believe that Jesus Christ is son of God, and that in his teaching,
life, death and ressurection, God revealed the way to fullness of
life. I also believe in the Holy Spirit of God who inspires and
upholds my faith, and acts in the Church and in my life. 
I am a Christian because I know God.

>Do you think the Bible is inerrant, 
No

>do you believe in the virgin birth and resurrection?
Here it depends on what you are asking. 
If you mean, did Jesus' mother ever have sex before Jesus was born? -
my answer is that I do not know, and do not think the answer to that
question particularly important. I think it is most likely that Jesus
was conceived and born in the normal way, but I would not rule out
other possibilities. 
It is a truism that journalists and biographers do not wait outside
the delivery room at the birth of famous people. Birth legends are
written about many famous people, and they often contain germs of
truth, heavily laced with symbolism which is linked to their later
life and acheivements. 
The people who were gathered around Jesus in his lifetime, who came to
be known after his death as Christians, experienced the power and
goodness of God in Jesus' life so clearly that they came to believe
that he was the son of God. The language of "virgin birth" is an
expression of this belief. 

As to the resurrection, I do not believe that, had I been sitting on a
park bench in the garden outside Jerusalem on the first easter morning
I would have seen Jesus sit up and ask for a beer and a pair of boxer
shorts. I do believe that Jesus' followers experienced his presence
among them in the days following his death, and that this experience
was so powerful that it inspired them to continue Jesus' life, work
and teaching, even at the expense of their own lives. The spread of
Christianity after the death of Jesus is, to me, one of the strongest
objective pieces of evidence supporting the proposition that God acted
in Jesus' life, and continues to act in the Church which continues his
mission.

>Do you obey the commands from the OT/HS (Hebrew Scriptures) that Jesus
>didn't specifically overturn? 
No.

>Do you think the OT/HS is relevant to Christians today?
Yes.

>We'd like to know what you believe to help with knowing where you're
>coming from when you discuss.

Well, now you know.

What do you believe?

Cheers

N+

Nigel B. Mitchell