Date: 22 Aug 1997 18:02:38 +1000 From: (Michael Hore)

Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian

Michael Smith < writes:

— Youch!!

Welcome back Christian. I think you’ve outdone yourself this time.

Christian Graus wrote: (Isa 6:5-7 NKJV) So I said: “Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, The LORD of hosts.” {6} Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a live coal which he had taken with the tongs from the altar. {7} And he touched my mouth with it, and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; Your iniquity is taken away, And your sin purged.” I decided to read Isaiah again today, and these verses really hit me. I remember someone quoting them to me recently as an example to refute my suggestion that Zeph 3:9 refers to God giving all Christians tongues as a ‘pure language’ in this age. <-- >

That was me…

— Whoever that person was, I hope I can use the Bible to interpret the above and illustrate that the opposite is true. <-- >

Chris seems to have missed or ignored the main point I was making, which is that “lips” in Hebrew is *never* used to indicate “language”, for which “tongue” is used. “Lips” is used in a much more general sense to refer to speech, without reference to the language used.

I then went on to give the Isaiah passage as a clear reference to the same idea in Zephaniah, namely that for someone to speak God’s word worthily, they have to be purified of their sins.

Chris has again showed his dogged determination to read tongues into every conceivable passage, no matter how clear it is that the passage is talking about something else, and in the process miss or sidestep the main points of any counter-arguments that are raised.

(BTW, I note that my posting the other week explaining the mis-exegesis of the “manifestation of the Spirit” reference in 1 Cor 12 has gone unanswered – don’t worry, I have quite a long memory 🙂

— [snippage]

Funnily enough, there is a reference to speaking in tongues in Isaiah, but I’ve never heard you quote it Christian.

Look at 1 Cor 14:21 (NIV) 21 In the Law it is written: “Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me,” says the Lord.

This is a quote from Isaiah 28:11-12

Isaiah 28:1-13 (NIV) 1 Woe to that wreath, the pride of Ephraim’s drunkards, to the fading flower, his glorious beauty, set on the head of a fertile valley– to that city, the pride of those laid low by wine! 2 See, the Lord has one who is powerful and strong. Like a hailstorm and a destructive wind, like a driving rain and a flooding downpour, he will throw it forcefully to the ground. 3 That wreath, the pride of Ephraim’s drunkards, will be trampled underfoot. 4 That fading flower, his glorious beauty, set on the head of a fertile valley, will be like a fig ripe before harvest– as soon as someone sees it and takes it in his hand, he swallows it. 5 In that day the LORD Almighty will be a glorious crown, a beautiful wreath for the remnant of his people. 6 He will be a spirit of justice to him who sits in judgment, a source of strength to those who turn back the battle at the gate. 7 And these also stagger from wine and reel from beer: Priests and prophets stagger from beer and are befuddled with wine; they reel from beer, they stagger when seeing visions, they stumble when rendering decisions. 8 All the tables are covered with vomit and there is not a spot without filth. 9 “Who is it he is trying to teach? To whom is he explaining his message? To children weaned from their milk, to those just taken from the breast? 10 For it is: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, 12 to whom he said, “This is the resting place, let the weary rest”; and, “This is the place of repose”– but they would not listen. 13 So then, the word of the LORD to them will become: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there– so that they will go and fall backward, be injured and snared and captured.

I recently attended a series of talks by John Woodhouse (a Sydney Anglican Evangelist). John raise an argument from this passage that the gift of tongues were actually a curse.

The phrase “Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule” is in Hebrew “sav lasav sav lasav kav lakav kav lakav” which seems to be a mocking chant. Those who opposed Isaiah were mocking his words, so he prophesied that “Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people”.

I’m not 100% comfortable with John’s interpretation, but I think it’s worth discussion. <-- >

I think my friend John (we were in the same year at Moore College) may have been slightly tongue-in-cheek here, or at the very least he would be fully aware that what he was putting forward was a bit contentious.

He had a bit of a (friendly) debate with John Wimber a few years back, and this was probably one of the arguments that came out. But I think it’s more likely that Paul didn’t have the “curse” idea in focus when he cited Isaiah – this would put tongues in such a negative light that it wouldn’t make much sense of the positive things Paul says about tongues.

So Michael, I agree with you (and I think even John W would agree that his suggested interpretation might possibly be up the creek).

— If you want to talk about Tongues in the old testament, try interpreting this passage instead of inserting tongues in passages which have nothing to do with them. <-- >

Amen!

Cheers, Mike.

———————————————————- Mike Hore ———————————————————-