Subject: Re: Especially for Nigel (and Chris Ho-Stuart): Christ the
creator
Date: 29 Sep 1999 07:49:11 GMT
From: Chris Ho-Stuart <>

Further to what is or is not orthodox...

This is pretty much unresearched, so I expect and hope useful
correction from others better informed, like Graeme, Nigel,
Darren, Rowland, or any number of others.

I will try to avoid insinuations or digs at persons involved in
this debate, as I have a sad tendency to get judgemental. I'd
be very grateful if responses could likewise attempt the same
restraint... though of course you are welcome to be as robust as
you like in calling what I have written nonsensical or foolish.

-----

The Apostle's creed clearly identifies the first person
of the trinity as creator -- the maker of Heaven and Earth.

The Nicene creed also refers to the first person as the maker
of Heaven and Earth, and then later refers to the second person
as involved in creation also. However, English translations
of the creed express this in two ways. Some say


"by whom all things were made"

Others say


"through whom all things were made"

This may seem a fine distinction -- but people have been burnt
for less.

A major purpose of the creeds -- especially the Nicene creed --
was to define orthodox teaching of the church and to deny various
alternative teachings, or heresies: especially the Arian heresy,
which regarded Christ as a creation of God. The biblical link between
Jesus and creation has also been pointed out, particularly Colossians
and John's gospel. Indeed, these verses are major starting points
for the doctrine of the trinity.

However, the same subtle distinction of "through" and "by" shows
up in English translations of the Colossians verse (1:16 and context).

It seems to me that the real heresy (or better, deviation from
orthodoxy) is not so much in asserting that the first or the second
person is creator, but would lie in *denying* that one or other person
of the trinity was creator.

I think the teaching of the church through history generally
associates "creator" with the first person of the trinity, where
one or other person is emphasized; this comes through very clearly
in the Apostle's creed,

As the doctrine of the trinity was refined, and heresies refuted, it
was also the teaching of the church that all persons of the trinity
were "co-equal", uncreated, and pre-existed creation; and hence that
God three-in-one was creator. Further fine distinctions on the exact
roles of the various persons are something on which I hesitate to
pontificate further; the distinction between "by" and "through" which
appears in the various English translations both for the creeds and of
the bible mean this is likely to lead to some language wars where I
can only watch.

It may also be interesting to see citations for what distinctions
teachers in the church has considered important. Graeme has already
supplied some good extracts.

I hope the above may be of some small value...

Cheers -- Chris Ho-Stuart