Subject: Re: Graeme and co. : The Holy Trinity in creation
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 14:46:55 GMT
From:  (Troy Harris)
Organization: Customer of Connect.com.au Pty. Ltd.
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian

Graeme,

I have a new nick name for you: The theology Chef.  You slice and
dice the Godhead beyond recognition and create a new meal for the
culinary Christian.......

>>  It is ascribed to the Father : Gen 1:1,
>
>Wrong again.  God the3 Father is not mentioned in Genesis chapter one.
>The word is Elohim [plural], it does not define any particular member
>of the Trinity.
>

Here endeth the lesson.  The Triune God in creation.  Why do you war
against the Trinity in creation when you agree that this is the
meaning of the very first verse of scripture?   Give up. 
 
Now, pay attention:

St Athanasius said, in refuting the Arians (Who also held to the sole
exclusive agency of Jesus in creation,):

"But what God speaks, it is very plain He speaks through the Word,
and not through another.  And the Word, as being not seperate from the
Father, nor unlike and foreign to the Father' essence, what He works,
those are the Father's works, and His framing of all things is one
with His; and what the Son gives, that is the Father's gift. And he
who hath seen the Son, knows that, in seeing Him, he has seen, not
Angel, nor one merely greater than Angels, nor in short any creature,
but the Father Himself.  And he who hears the Word, knows that he
hears the Father; as he who is irradiated by the radiance, knows that
he is enlightened by the sun."  (Against the Arians, discourse 3, 14)

And again: 

"Such then being the Son, therefore, when the Son works, the Father
is the worker, and the Son coming to the saints, the Father is He who
cometh in the Son, as He promised when He said "I am my Father will
come, and will make our abode with him" (Jn 14:23), for in the Image
is contemplated the Father, and in the Radiance is the Light.

Therefore, also, as we just said now, when the Father gives grace and
peace,  the Son also gives it, as Paul signifies in every epistle ,
"grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus
Christ", for one and the same grace is from the Father in the Son, as
the light of the sun and of the radiance is one, and as the sun's
illumination is effected through the radiance; and so too, when he
prays for the Thessalonians, in saying "Now God Himself even our
Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, may He direct our way unto you", he
has guarded the unity of the Father and of the Son"  (Against the
Arians, discourse 3, 11)

And again:
"For where the Father is, there is the Son, and where the light,
there the radiance; and as what the Father worketh, He worketh through
the Son, and the Lord Himself says "what I see the Father do, that I
do also"  (Same book, Graeme)

The point is this:

The unity of the Godhead is preserved only in the proper
understanding of their Divine relationship.  When one starts slicing
and dicing, one in effect undermines the doctrine of the Trinity.

>> 1 Cor 8:5,6, 
>
>Neither does this ascribe the act of creation to God the Father [but
>is does ascribe creation to Christ]!!

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things,
and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and
we by him."

This supports the orthodox position, not the theology Chef position.
Note:
All things are of the Father: He is the creator.
All things are by the Son.
 
The Creed you despise says: 
"I believe in God the Father almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth, and
in Jesus Christ......*by whom all things were made*.....".  This is
pretty accurate, don't you think?

You have a problem with that.  This puts you borderline Arian.  (FYI;
there is more to Arianism than the issue of the diety of Jesus- sole
creative agency is another) 

>>Ps 33, 
>
>Neither does this Psalm ascribe the work of creation to the Father -
>"By the word of the Lord were the heavens made."
>
>>Heb 11:3
>
>"the worlds were frames by the word of God".  Do you have problems
>comprehending the English language Troy?

These two verses certainly do ascribe creation the the Father- because
the He and the Son act as One,  (as has been pointed out above) , and
all things are OF Him.

You can argue all you like about "agency", but you do so at the
expense of the Father and the Holy Spirit.  You divide and dice and
slice up the Trinty (as you do the incarnation of the Son).  You must
acknowledge the unity of the Godhead or be a polytheist.

To be a Christian, you must believe the Catholic Faith. If you don't
you are something else.

>>and almost every OT reference to creation.
>
>Oh really? Tell me where!  

Why? You won't believe them anyway- but for those of open heart:

"Blessed be Abraham of God most high, who created Heaven and Earth"
(Gen. 14:19).  
"I am the Lord thy God, that establish the Heavens and create the
earth, Whose hands have created all the host of Heaven"  (Hos 13:4
LXX- which I am sure you do not believe either).

Do these verses exclude the Son in creation?  Of course not.  Do you
really think they exclude the Father?

>>  It is acsribed to the Son: Heb 1:10, Jn 1:3, Col. 1:16
>
>True, as I have been saying all along [but you and Nigel just want to
>argue about].
>

No, pay attention.

Nigel affirmed the Creed.  So do I.  You despised it, and implied it
was rubbish.

We **believe** in the Son in creation.. "By whom all things were
made".......but you **exclude** the Father. (at least materially).
That is our Creed.

>>  It is ascribed to the Holy Spirit: Gen 1:2 
>
>Wrong again. Genesis 1:1 is creation; Genesis 1:2 and following are
>dealing with the restoration of the earth (the six-days of so-called
>creation which were not creation but restoration). The Holy Spirit is
>always involved in restoration.

That is bizarre.  You have wierd ideas.

>>  IOW, The whole of the Trinity shares in the creation according to
>>the Divine revelation.
>
>Whether that is true or not you have not demonstrated it from
>scripture.

I dont have to demonstrate it.

I believe the Bible teaches it, the early Church understood it that
way, the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, and the Protestant
Reformers believe this way too..........where does that leave you?

>
>>
>>  Then, we have the Credal statements of the early Christians:
>
>{All of the irrelevant references to creeds and church farthers
>snipped}  These are not scripture and do not have the authority of
>scripture.

Well, if you ignore all authority- why should I not do the same and
ignore your teaching?  You have less authority than the authors of the
Creeds.  They got their authority from the Lord, and scripture.  You
are at odds with them.

I think you better try another tack, before your despisal of
authority and teachers turns around on you.

>>  The fact that all things come from the Father (1 Cor 8:6) seems to
>>be overlooked.
>
>Not at all, the Father planned everything; the Son executed it (the
>same in the salvation plan too); the Holy Spirit reveals it. 

Can you find a verse for me that says: "The Father was only the
planner in creation"?

Can you find a verse for me that says "The Spirit only reveals the
creation"?

Or....is this just a teaching of men?

Troy Harris