Subject: Re: Universalism revisited

Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 00:12:52 GMT

From:  (St.Athanasius)

Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian,alt.christnet.theology

In the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy

Spirit, the One God, Amen. Peace and grace of the

Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
Dear Rowland,

This topic is indeed an important one for all to

consider. Some points of interest…..
>A belief in universalism (all will be saved) has generally been

>considered incompatible with Western orthodox/evangelical/fundamentalist

>theology. (The church father Origen was an exception).
Firstly, Origen is NOT a Church Father (or church

father) as his writings have been censured by the

Church. (Especially in this area and the teaching

of the ultimate salvation of Satan). Secondly, he

was condemned for accepting ordination from a

Bishop other than his own (a serious sin in

Orthodoxy), Thirdly, his self mutilation of his

genitals tends to imply that he had some major

emotional and/or sexual hangups? Maybe he took the

Lord’s command to ‘cut it off’

literally?

:-))
I remind all that they have never seen a historic

Christian Church named after this teacher, nor

have they ever met a Christian priest or monk by

the name Father Origen. He is not named as a

‘saint’ in the Church and his ultimate

position in Christ is not known and NOT assumed

by the Church. I say all this as a son of the

Church of Alexandria, to which Origen was one of

her most famous sonsl. So we should know a little

about the man. 
Having said all of that it should be noted that

Origen was a brilliant Scholar, linguist and

Biblical Exegete (Others on this NG please note).

His famous Hexapla translated the Holy Scriptures

into six different languages all running

concurrently like our modern Greek/Hebrew/English

Bibles. His Allegorical method of Biblical

interpretation (really the School of Alexandria’s

model which Origen exemplified) has been hailed

as the most spiritual and comprehensive

commentaries that exist on the Holy Scriptures.

It is claimed by some that Origen repented and

recanted of his Universal teachings prior to his

death, but only God knows this as the Church has

not elevated him into a position of blessedness,

and of course the Church should know as it is led

by the Holy Spirit  :-))
>An issue like this is best analysed prayerfully and

>inductively, rather than prejudicially and deductively.
I agree wholeheartedly.
>The Lord… must remain in heaven until the time of universal

>restoration that God announced long ago through his holy prophets (Acts

>3:21)
Universal restoration includes the resurrection

of those that have done good to life and the

resurrection of those who have done evil to

damnation.(John 5:29) Still a Universal

restoration, but seperate places for seperate

beings. 
Snip of excellent Scriptural quotes that seem to

support a Universal salvation. 
Rowland,

There is no shame in a person privately thinking

among their own thoughts that God’s love is

so immense that all mankind shall indeed be saved.

But these thoughts should remain private! Why,

firstly they are not the received faith of the

Christian Church and as such we have no authority

to teach a new and invented doctrine.  Secondly,

they directly contradict scores of Scriptural

passages that teach of a punishment, hell,

afterlife of torment, seperation etc that are

throughout the New Testament. Thirdly, (and most

importantly in my view) The teaching teaches

Christians to stop struggling after holiness and

Christ’s Image and those outside of the

Christian Faith that they are safe in their

unbelief or false religion as in the end all will

be saved anyway. This MAY or MAY NOT be true BUT

it is certainly not the Faith received through

Christ and God knows best. He obviously prefers

us and the rest of mankind to strive towards

Christian Perfection, even though we may never

acquire it this side of Glory. 
Finally, depending on our particular view of God,

The Bible and Scholarship we may look at

salvation in one of the following ways:
____________/______________/_______________________

Muslims/Jews             Christians           All the rest
Universalist says all of the above are saved ultimately.
_____________/                _____________________

Christians                             All the rest.
Some say only the Christians are saved and the rest will be lost.
_________/     _____________________________________

True Christians          Everybody else including other Christians.
Some say only ‘their brand’ of true

and genuine Christianity contains the saved,

all else even the other believers shall be lost.
__________/_____________/____________               _______

Christians/Jews/Muslims/Other Faith Communities          Rejectors.
Some say all religions lead to God except only

a small fraction who are the willing rejectors

who shall be lost.
__________          _____________________________________

The Elect              The rest of mankind including faith communities
Some say only the Pre-Determined Elect shall be

saved and they are a number from all peoples,

tribes etc and the rest shall be lost. 
      .      _____________________________________________

Saved                        The rest of mankind.
Some say only a minute amount of mankind will

be saved with the majority of all people who

have ever lived being lost, even those amongst

faith communities. (The single dot above the

word saved indicates the few who enter into

life).
I suppose that there may be other views that

I have not considered, but it should be noted

that just about everybody on this NG would fit

into one of the above categories, and indeed

during ones life may move from one view to

another and back etc. Finally, various people

may choose each group for various reasons and

I do not think it is wise to label everyone who

thinks that way as doing it for the same reason.  
For example Rowland and Nigel MAY come close

to a belief in Universal salvation, but may do

so from totally different angles. Then again

they may not believe in it at all. 
I suppose I should be honest and place myself

amongst my own graph, I do so by quoting a

Biblical passage (proof texting :-))  ) I

realise that every group has their own proof

texts…..
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the

gate and broad is the way that leads to

destruction, and there are MANY WHO GO IN BY IT,

because narrow is the gate and difficult is the

way which leads to life, and there are FEW WHO

FIND IT.”  Matthew 7:13,14.
I remind everyone that I would prefer (my own

will that is) to tend towards universalism, yet

my own studies and everything that I have

learnt from the ancient Church tells me no it

is the opposite and that the vast majority of

persons who have ever lived may be ultimately

lost (Including the majority of those e

xhibiting a faith response at some point in

their lives). I hope I am very wrong in this

matter. 
Peace and grace be with you all. 
>Shalom!  Rowland Croucher      )
“The Word was made flesh in order to offer up this Body

for all,

and that we, partaking of  His Spirit, might be deified.”

Saint Athanasius the Apostolic. 298-373 AD.