D.Castles <> wrote in message .

> How many times do I have to reiterate. I am not abusing you. It is you who

is > abusing me. The only thing I have said that could be taken as a personal

> critisism is to comment on the activity of your brain. If it offended you

I > apologise for saying this and withdraw the comment.

Thank you. Now let’s settle down and talk some sense about the substantive matters…

> As a person, I have no criticism of you. You seem to dislike me though and

call > my arguments “crap”, call me a “fool”, a “swine” attribute motives to me

that > are not true. You and your admirers are rude people. Is this indicative of

the > “loving” Christian?

Was it Confucius who say the one who leads with chin might cop some rough touch :-)?

> You have said “Show me someone better-put-together than Jesus and I’ll

follow > him/her/it” this was part of my argument. Must you follow anyone?

About 99.99% of humans do on most issues… It’s been many years since I came across a truly original thought/ideology…

And most of my atheist friends (not all: there are about two who contribute in this forum who are exceptions) develop their anti-Christian ideology through _reaction_ to whatever they feel the Church/’Christians’ have done negatively to them. You’ve mentioned something along these lines in another post, so I’ll respond there…

> I was

> suggesting that you try to think for yourself like Spong tries to do

instead > of being a follower. If you find this concept difficult I will drop it.

It’s not a difficult _concept_, but sure is difficult in practice. Have you read of the genesis of some of Spong’s theories about sex? His daughters!!! Have you read of Spong’s relationship with his mentor J A T Robinson? Spong’s not original on most things…

And I thought seeing as I’d done a lot of homsework on Spong you might have picked up on some of the ideas on my website. In case it’s got lost in the fog here it is again – See http://jmm.org.au/articles/590.htm .

My hunch is that a lot of people are fascinated with Spong ‘cos he’s one of today’s most rational critics of the Church. They are critical of the Church too so hey…. Spong’s their hero suddenly. Makes a little sense, but not much…

BTW I like Spong. I’ve said publicly many times his Diocesan Website is a model for integrity. Not too many institutions are willing to publish their committee minutes for the world to read. Terrific!

> As for questions I have already mentioned the Trinity, virgin birth,

> resurrection and you haven’t commented.

Sorry, I might have missed a post there. What were your specific questions on these doctrines? There are probably about a dozen for each – take your pick!

> As for the reference to Jesus’ return.

> He promised hiis disciples that he would return in their lifetime did he

not? > …………and he didn’t. (I don’t have a bible handy soIi can’t give you

the > ref.)

Jesus did return – in two ways. He came via his Spirit at Pentecost, as he promised. And he came to ‘take his disciples to be with himself’ in their deaths. John 14.

~~~

> DaveD.Castles <> wrote in message

.

> I was directing this thread to George but seeing you want to buy in

Rowland

Happens on newsgroups. When I want only one person to ‘buy in’ I email that person direct…

> and be a de-facto counsellor………. Yes Roland I was thrown out of

Wesley College > for speaking out and asking questions. If you had attended this school in

the > early sixties when I was there you would probably be aware about the

physical, > mental and sexual abuse suffered by some of the children. It didn’t pay to

> mention this out loud in those days. I did. I was only 12 years old.

> The mental scars have mostly faded in time but if you want to see the

physical > scars then you’re welcome to. Remember, this was a school run by the

Methodist > church. I think you are preaching at a Methodist church soon aren’t you

Rowland?

Yes, but a Wesleyan Methodist church. Different mob…

And I want to say I’d guessed there was a history of something like this…

Awful: has anything been done to bring those people to justice? There have been some other high-profile situations from that era appearing in our courts…

> Schools and churches are all institutions and like all institutions

sometimes > fail.

Right on! It’s a topic I did Masters’ degree on back in the 70’s. A little article I wrote on Creativity and Bureaucracy can be found at http://jmm.org.au/articles/8193.htm

> I see this in context now and don’t blame the present church or the school

> for any of this. But please don’t assume I don’t have good reason for my

> bitterness towards a “loving” church that failed that demonstrated nothing

but > contempt for my welfare.

I feel with/for you. If something like that had happened to me I’d be angry – and with, I think good cause.

You might be interested to know that our little ministry specializes in helping people, one-to-one, who’ve felt done in by their churches…

> Dave